Rick Lozano (guest)
00:00:04.160 - 00:00:33.840
If you're trying to bring something to life, you can't go half idiot. You can't go half idiot. You've got to go all the way. You've got to commit to the bit, right?

You think about improv or Second City or Saturday Night Live. Some of those things are really, really dumb. But if they don't go all in, even with the dumb ideas, it will never have a chance of working.

And I think similarly, we've got to go full idiot, if you will. We've got to put ourselves out there, even if there's a risk.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:00:35.360 - 00:01:32.710
Hi there and welcome to the Step up expert voices for leadership growth. I'm your host, Kent Knievel. Every week I talk to experts who focus on helping leaders step up their leadership game.

If you're new to the show, then on whatever platform you're using, I encourage you to subscribe so you never miss an episode. One last thing.

As a leadership development consultant and executive coach, I have a particular interest in supporting supporting recent internally promoted leaders.

If that's you, or if you support a leader who has been recently promoted, I encourage you to visit my website at Kent Coach Playbook and download a free copy of my 90 day blueprint filled with practical advice for you or the leader you support in hitting the ground running and truly stepping up to their new leadership level. Without further ado, on with the show. Welcome, everyone. Today we're talking about authenticity.

And with me for this conversation today is Rick Lozano, author of Find you'd jam, create momentum, unlock potential, and rock what's next. Welcome, Rick.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:01:32.710 - 00:01:36.550
Thank you. Welcome. Welcome, everybody listening, and thank you for having me.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:01:37.350 - 00:02:22.550
Perfect. Thank you. And Rick, you know, speaker, author, and I like how you say this. Musical motivator.

So for the audience at large, I first came across you in, I want to say it was 2017 at the ATD conference. I was telling you this earlier. It's the first time I've been to the conference. I went alone. I had my schedule all kind of thought through.

I was trying to focus on leadership development and some talent management topics. And so long ago, I can't remember who I was talking through the schedule with.

But when, you know, I was showing them my schedule and they're like, oh, you're going to love that session. Rick's amazing. And I think at the time, you know, you were a big hit at atd. I think it was standing room only, multiple sessions.

So I'm really, I'm thrilled to have you today.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:02:22.630 - 00:02:42.210
Thank you. It was so much fun and I'm thrilled that we met there.

Atd, the association for Talent Development, has been a huge source of just my entire career and camaraderie and network. It's been a fantastic place, meeting people like you and all of my talent development and HR peeps. So I'm thrilled to be here.

Thank you for having me.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:02:42.370 - 00:02:53.720
Absolutely. Shout out atd. So before we get rolling, I always like to just hear and have the guests tell a little bit of their own career story.

So whatever you're doing, know, motivated to talk about.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:02:54.600 - 00:03:43.620
Yeah, well, I'm currently a speaker, author, and musical motivator, as you mentioned, and we'll talk about that a little bit later. My career, similar to yours is in leadership and talent development.

I did about a decade in financial services, and then I moved to the tech side of the business or of the world and worked in technology for almost a decade, while at the same time working on the side building the business that I currently have, which I officially formalized about six years ago. And so these days, I work as a keynote speaker, a little bit of consulting, workshopping, leadership development, team development stuff.

And yeah, I'm a singer, songwriter, musician, and I bring an element of that to the work that I do. And because I teed it up like that, Kent, you know what I have to do now, right?

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:03:44.740 - 00:03:45.940
Absolutely. I'm waiting.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:03:45.940 - 00:05:36.200
I can't wait because the story's boring if I don't kick it off this way. So here's something fun about. Oh, gosh.

Eight years ago, I was doing a keynote presentation in Columbia, South Carolina, and this gentleman comes up to me after the keynote, and he says, oh, hey, I saw you last year. Thanks for coming back. It was great. He says, I have a question for you. I said, sure. What is it? He said, how can I be like you?

Like, like, dude, what are you talking about? You don't want to be like me. I'm crazy. It's a nuthouse up here. He's like, no, like, how did you become a keynote speaker? How did you.

How do you do that? And I said, well, I don't know. I mean, there's no prescribed method. And this wasn't intentional. I didn't plan on doing this.

It just wound up here, and everyone I know has done it differently. He said, okay, but tell me your journey. And so I did kind of told him all the different paths and stuff.

And at the end of the conversation, he says, oh, that's great. Thanks. He says, you know what you should do? I mean, you write these songs for your keynote.

He's like, you should write a song and introduce yourself with it. And I was like, oh, sure. He's like, no, really. Write a song and call it Introduce how to be like Me. So I did this.

This is a total joke, but it makes sense in the context of the conversation we're having. So folks, for those of you listening, these are the exact step by step processes to follow to be like this is a joke. How to be like me.

Here we go, the exact process. Graduate from college with a useless degree. Move to California to set yourself free. Grow your hair long and join a crappy band.

And that' how you be like me. Moved to Colorado with a girl who was a clown. That sounds like an eight year old. She was actually. She was studying clowning.

She was going to clown college. That's a thing?

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:05:36.200 - 00:05:36.640
Perfect.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:05:37.440 - 00:06:53.640
It was weird. People change, Kent. I'm just saying. Move to Colorado with a girl who's a clown. Break up because you're afraid to settle down.

Move on back to Texas for a teaching degree. And that's how you be like me. Move back to Colorado for a woman that you met. Struggle for the bills. Cause you don't have a job yet. Marry them.

Divorce. See how easy this can be? That's how you be like me. All right, here's where it gets complicated. Pay close attention. Quit teaching. Move to banking.

Quit banking. Back to teaching. Quit teaching. Back to banking. Get a job teaching banking. See how that works? Stay a corporate trainer. Cause you love what you do.

Work for a tech company. Try something new. No more suits and ties on my body. You'll see. And that's how you be like me. Find the love of your life. Get married. Celebrate.

She thinks this song is stupid, but I think it's really great. Become a singing speaker who teaches how to lead. And that's how you be like me. Oh yeah, that's how you be like me One more time.

That's how you be like. The exact step by step process.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:06:55.690 - 00:07:06.410
Just for the listeners. I did not know I was getting a personal concert today. Let alone. Let alone it will be. This is a the Step up podcast. First, a live, live performance.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:07:06.410 - 00:07:45.430
There you go. And by the way, I tell that it's a total joke. Of course the song, I do it for two reasons. Number one, because I think it's funny and you know, it's.

It's engaging the audience. But it also serves as a really great point to some of the things that we're going to talk about today. For example, authenticity. Right?

This is who I am. This is who shows up and.

And I've got these parts that are funny and silly as well as these things that I think are useful and practical for leaders and teams. And. And one of the messages that we can start with is you can do both. You can find a way to integrate all those different parts of yourself. And.

And that's kind of what I'm trying to do here today. So, yeah, thank you for allowing me to play.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:07:46.150 - 00:08:10.800
Oh, my gosh, thank you. I love that. So I.

And maybe I'm going to force us into something really quick because it was a story that you were telling about how you started merging these two things. So I think to your. You know, there's something magical that happens when you begin to give yourself permission to lean into who you are.

So I would love, you know, for you to tell that story.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:08:11.040 - 00:10:12.670
It's been a journey, and honestly, it's a journey that I'm still working on. It's still something that I'm doing in terms of fully owning it and evolving even further into the work that I do.

But the story that you reference, here's. Here's the short version of how it actually happened. Back in 2012 or somewhere thereabouts, I had a leader who changed my life.

And he didn't know he was doing it at the time. I didn't know he was doing it at the time. But in short, he said, hey, Rick, you're great at three things. And I said, that's it, really?

He said, yes, you're great at three things. You're a great speaker, you're a great trainer, you're a great musician. Do those three things at the same time.

And at that time, I had no idea what he meant, and I don't think he had any idea what he meant. He just thought, you know, this is what brings you alive. You're really good at it. You're really good over here.

Why don't you just merge all these things? And so I did, and I started experimenting with bringing music into, at that time, the world of training, leadership development.

And something just clicked. And I went to the association for Talent Development, atd, for my very first time. I got accepted to speak there.

And I brought my guitar, and it was great. It was standing room only. I got crazy mad reviews. And it just kicked off what essentially changed the trajectory of my career entirely.

And it's funny now, because looking at it this long later, it evolved and it evolved and it evolved, but at the same time, the biggest thing that was holding it back was actually me, because I Wasn't going full in on it. I wasn't saying I can bring my guitar, I can speak in musical metaphors, I can be both taken seriously and have fun at the same time.

And it's been that ongoing evolution and now I feel like, you know what, I can do these things and I can bring all these. It's got to be done strategically of course, but, but I can do it. And so it's just about owning all those different parts of yourself.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:10:14.220 - 00:10:50.630
And I think it, it, there's an, an openness to being nudged in one direction or another. The openness to a left hand turn in your career. Right.

That I would say it's, it's probably, I, I, my guess would be as is true for me with where I'm at in my career though, I think it's a much more boring story and I don't know that I could put it to song, but it's probably easier to tell that story in reverse, you know, from where you're at now versus seeing it in front of you. Right. You have to have this openness to the, to the road opening up.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:10:50.630 - 00:10:51.030
Yeah.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:10:51.110 - 00:10:52.070
Before you, yeah.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:10:52.070 - 00:12:44.180
And you have to be open to it because there isn't always a playbook, there isn't always a path.

I mean, you as, as you well know, starting your own business, you can't say this is exactly the way it's going to go because life is going to take you in different directions and you just have to figure it out while at the same time I think really staying true to that authentic self. And I'll give you an example of this too.

And one of the pitfalls that I fell into when I released my first book, my first book is called Acoustic Leadership. Develop a Leadership Culture that Resonates. And when I started doing that, I felt the need to be more serious. I'm like, I'm talking about leadership.

I've got to double down on the data and the impact and all of that stuff is true. But I wound up over indexing and over correcting.

And it's funny, I started speaking at these conferences and you know, the ATD conference, for example, I've spoken at 13 years, 14 years in a row, something like that. And I get, I'm fortunate to be able to do that. And I get people who see me every year and they show up every year just to see me.

And a couple of years ago, some feedback that I got from people I know and love and trust, they said, hey, you know, it's really great. I love what you're doing. But where's the Fun Rick?

Like, you know, you and I, at that time, I leaned a little too heavy on what my wife calls Business Rick. And Business Rick is all about the business and he's serious. And so I started showing up as Business Rick.

And honestly, it was less fun and it didn't engage as much. And what I realized along the way was me being who I am was the reason it resonated in the first place.

And I started worrying so much about being credible. I don't know that I stopped being incredible, if you will. Right. And so you've got to find a way to use all those aspects of yourself.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:12:44.740 - 00:13:25.490
I wonder what the research would say. I guess so to speak of, like, what that unlocks for yourself.

Because I have a mini similar ish experience of just sort of being asked to tone myself down and doing so for the first, you know, three to six months where I was and then was miserable and then decided to just start being myself. And not only was I more engaged, but the outcomes were better. The re.

Specific requests coming in for my involvement on projects sort of increased, so to speak. So I wonder, you know, not. Not that we'll dive into that today, but, you know, I'm just curious what. What the research would say there.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:13:27.240 - 00:14:01.890
Go ahead. I will make one note on that. Of course, we've got to evolve and meet the circumstances in front of us.

I mean, Business Rick has its place and there are times where my behavior has to change. For example, I remember the very first time I facilitated some sessions in London.

My personality is a bit big for Londoners and I very quickly learned, hey, in this context, I'm still going to be myself, but I've got to package it a little bit different. Right. So we've got to allow ourselves to adapt, certainly, but at the same time, keep that core essence of who we are.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:14:03.250 - 00:14:40.620
Yes, I love that because I've been talking to some folks about this recently when talking about authenticity, which is, you know, you do have to read the room because there's a line you can cross Right. Before authenticity becomes kind of messy and may have been inappropriate at that time. Right.

So I. I know you've recently written a new book that I'd love to chat a little bit about. But I also have been following you on LinkedIn ever since 2017.

Not just recently, but I also know you're putting out some music coming up, so not, not to, you know, shove us hard into a new direction, but just would love to hear what you've.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:14:40.620 - 00:16:15.480
Been up to no, thank you. I am. I'm actually. I'm thrilled. I've got a brand new collection of music out right now. It's a new collection of songs called.

And it's the best work I've ever done. And part of the reason is because of the decisions that I made and some of the changing I had to do to make that music.

I got it recorded in Nashville with some professional studio musicians, and, man, they were so great to collaborate with. They are amazing. And I bring that up because part of the journey that I've had as well is going, hey, I'm a serious songwriter.

I'm a serious musician, and I want people to take my quote, unquote, real music seriously. And for a long time, I was like, okay, I have these funny little keynote songs, but I can't do too much of that.

And there no one will take my serious songs seriously. And it was always this, like, how do I find that balance?

And a friend of mine told me one day, he's like, look, the Beatles had Yesterday and Yellow Submarine, which couldn't be two different songs. They can do both. And I think. I think to our. Our conversation here, I think as leaders, very often we're told, you got to be this or this.

You're either strong and courageous or you're weak or whatever those false dichotomies are. And I fully believe we can allow all of those things to exist together.

We've got to be strategic about it, certainly, but you don't have to deny these different aspects of yourself. So. Yeah, so. So that's a little bit about the music. And the new album sounds great.

Go to Spotify or itunes or wherever you listen to music and check it out.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:16:16.360 - 00:16:53.960
Nice. I love the idea of, right. You can do both. Right.

And I think one thing that comes to mind for me with leaders is you're either known as getting things done or you're known as the creative person. So how else, you know, let's kind of bringing this back into the consulting work that you're doing.

How else are you approaching this with leaders in terms of, you know, I think I've kind of perhaps put this spin of authenticity into what we're talking about, but there's also the. This dichotomy of being good at. Do I have to focus my energy in this direction or this direction?

So I'm kind of curious how you're bringing that forward to leaders.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:16:53.960 - 00:18:24.800
Well, one of the things that I do with leaders and teams is I introduce the model from the book. The book find you'd jam. And the model is called the riff. Like a guitar riff. R, I, F, F. And it stands for rewrite, integrate, focus and flow.

And one of the key premises that I include when I walk people through this model is, look, everywhere we go these days, we hear these themes about scarcity. We don't have enough people. We don't have enough time. We don't have enough clarity. We don't have enough budget, we don't have enough headcount.

And I get it. I get it. At the same time, people are leaving organizations. And, you know, among the top reasons, which are what?

Bad managers, toxic work environment, pay. You always hear HR friends will tell us, opportunity. People don't see an opportunity.

And one of the things I realized a while back was that we've got all this latent talent that we're not utilizing. So if we have these skills, these passions, these.

These resources available, how can we reimagine how we're using them to get people an opportunity to grow in different ways?

It may not be the traditional career ladder, but suddenly when you are evolving your work to include a part of you that you just get jazzed about, whether it's your passion for coding or your passion for. Or skill set for training, whatever it is, if you get to do more of that, everyone benefits, and people see growth opportunities there.

So I walk teams through this model to help them sort of reimagine what they're doing and how they're doing it.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:18:26.480 - 00:18:29.280
Nice. So how did you come up with this model?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:18:29.840 - 00:19:50.050
I realized that as a songwriter, that's kind of what I do. And that's another one of the breakthroughs that happened with me.

Once I started thinking like a musician, my work as a leadership consultant completely changed because I had a different perspective. And one of the challenges, as you well know, as our audience well knows, stagnation, frustration, resignation. People are stuck.

They're not feeling a way up or out. People are feeling disengaged. People are resigned to the fact that they can't do anything about it.

And I thought, well, what does that look like in music? When I'm feeling stuck, what do I do? And, well, the truth is, I start with what I already have and what I already know as songwriters.

The riff model, right? We rewrite. We start with a tune like yesterday. We play the same chords and say, okay, I'm just going to reinvent them to do something else.

I integrate different sounds, different collaborators. I focus really hard on the melody and the hook, and you just put things in motion and you roll with it.

I've got a phrase that I use when I write songs, and it's right now. Edit later. Just do it. Don't censor yourself. Just do it. And so those same sort of general concepts are what I use.

With leaders and teams now going, what's the narrative we're playing? What do we already have available to us? What are we focusing on? Giving our attention, giving our energy.

And then we just look at the world a little creatively and the answers are right there, I think.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:19:51.250 - 00:20:51.420
Yeah, I love that. So something you said there, I'm gonna struggle to play it back, how you put it, but the. I had Nick Tassler on early.

Early in the podcast run, and I've heard him speak in the past. And one thing that.

And I'm still to this day gonna continue to misquote him, but we both determined that it's directionally correct, is that, you know, part of where people struggle is sometimes the pursuit of perfection stops people from even getting started. Right. You know, so I think in the writing world world, you. You kind of hear people talk about this as, like, give yourself permission to suck, right?

Like, give yourself permission to write something that's terrible. Give yourself permission to start playing something that sounds terrible, right? And it's.

It's not, you know, and again, here's my misquote of him, which is, it's not the first decision that matters. It's the second decision that's correcting everything that you've learned along the way, right? That matters.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:20:52.820 - 00:21:31.140
I believe that completely. And there's so many. We are our own worst enemies, whether it be as songwriters or in our professional lives. I get into.

And again, I told you the mantra I have, which is right now, edit later. Because I used to constantly just get in the way of my own self.

I'd be working on something and then I would get stuck, like, oh, that's a deep meaning or a deep lyric. What does that mean? And as soon as I start asking that question, everything comes to a stop. And ultimately it doesn't matter.

It's irrelevant, because what it means to me is going to be completely different than what it means to the person who's listening to the song. And it's just about getting out of our own way and saying, just.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:21:31.140 - 00:21:31.620
Just keep.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:21:31.620 - 00:21:43.220
Keep going. Write it. Iterate, iterate, iterate, iterate. Get out of your own way. Collaborate if you can with people who are even better than you.

And that's how we move forward. And we've got to just stop getting in our own Way.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:21:44.580 - 00:23:11.290
Yeah. So there's two things I want to dig into and we'll, we'll see what, see what happens here. I want to come back to careers for just a moment.

And I think some of what you were saying kind of reminds me of some experiences I've had when I was in internal HR roles. Right. That, that hearing from people who are regularly saying, what's my career path here?

Like, I just want someone to tell me what my career path is here. And kind of going back to your. Even your own career story in the song you were singing right at the beginning.

And this whole idea of it's easier to tell it in reverse and for it to sound like it was planned. Right.

But I think one thing that we regularly ran into was, and that people found was eye opening was actually having senior leaders come and tell their story.

Because the truth is that we don't have a secretive career map career plan in the filing cabinet over here where we've planned out 20, 25 years of career for you. Right. It's. It can sound like that, but for most people it's not. It's. It's remained this openness to being tapped on the shoulder.

And have you thought about going in this direction or, you know, just trying something completely new and now realizing, well, I've got this passion now, I want to go in this direction. So I'm just kind of curious what of that resonates with you and the work that you've done?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:23:12.040 - 00:24:56.010
I think one of the things where people have opportunities, two things, actually. Number one, career development and your employee experience is so much a personal responsibility.

We tend to outsource this to HR and say leaders and cultures. But the truth is we each have a role to play. If anything, the biggest role in it. We have to make our own decisions.

There's this phrase that I'm a fan of that I use in one of my keynotes called psyops S Y O P S. And it stands for sign your own permission slip. Like, stop waiting for somebody else to develop your career. Start doing it yourself. And I've got a friend of mine, her name is Linda Swindling.

She wrote a book called Ask outrageously. And it's just that it's like, ask for what you want. And there's some nuance to it, though.

I think very often people look at their career and their career development and, and they go up to their leaders and they say, I want a promotion, I want a promotion, I want a promotion. And look, it may or may not be there Promotion opportunities aren't always there. We know that.

What if instead of saying I want a promotion, you go to your leaders and saying, I'm trying to go into this area and grow. Can you please help me get access to whatever that access is? Right.

So if you're trying to grow as a leader, if you do want a manager role or something and you're trying to get a promotion there, rather than badgering your boss about promotion, instead say, hey, I'm trying to grow in this area and learn more about leadership, can I maybe sit in on one of your meetings, hear what you're talking about at this level? Because I don't have access to that right now. And just by changing the question, suddenly people have more ownership over their own development.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:24:57.130 - 00:25:52.560
I love that. So I think, I think we've, we've talked about, you know, you need to own your own career.

But even then I found that people still need to kind of, they do need to learn what that means. Right. And what, and I like that, you know, your encouragement here of you have to give yourself permission to ask. Right.

So the other thing I wanted to come back to was, you know, and maybe, maybe this is kind of shoving us, you know, back in the direction of find your jam. You had said, you know, that with your riff metaphor. You know, you're talking to people about kind of reimagining how they're using resources.

So it's, it sounds eerily familiar to skills based organization kind of thinking.

So I'm just kind of curious what brought you to this and how are you working with people around this sort of reimagining how they're leveraging their resources?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:25:52.880 - 00:27:21.530
Yes, part of it was accidental how I arrived there, but honestly, one of the main reasons I even started my career was born out of frustration. Before the podcast started, you and I were talking about competency models.

And back in the day I realized that we in talent development, as much as I love and support the idea of competency based learning, leadership development models, et cetera, at the time I thought, we're making this really hard.

And I looked around at this one example that was like 12 different leadership competencies mapped across 12 different sub defining behaviors mapped across five different levels of competence. And see, and you know, we, we are telling our, what is that? Like 144 different shades of leadership.

And we're telling leaders we need you to be great at all of that. And I thought, no, I'm not going to be great at all of that.

I mean, it would be wonderful if I Could, but I thought, what if we need to simplify this? Let's, let's, let's cut through the noise and really just grab one or two or three things that, that's what the leader did for me, right?

He said, Rick speaking, training, music, those three things. And, and, and helping cut through that noise with people is so powerful and, and I don't think we realize just how noisy our world is.

So many demands for our attention, so many asks, so many inputs. We, we live in a world of distraction and I think we just could really all benefit from simplification.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:27:23.850 - 00:27:29.320
So how, how are you encouraging people to find their own jam, so to speak?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:27:30.360 - 00:29:13.170
A couple of different ideas. The first of which is that concept of sign your own permission slip. Just put yourself out there. Then the truth is we've got to fail.

You've got to iterate and iterate and iterate. The only way you get good is by putting in the reps. It's like anything else.

So if you do want to be a leader or take a next level leader, we've got to start acting in those, you know, in those circumstances and owning that and just put ourselves in positions where we're constantly getting a chance to flex those muscles, if you will. I think the other thing too is to realize that most everybody, I think, wants to do a great job at work.

People want to show up at work and they want to be good at what they do and you know, they may not like their job or their role at the time, but I don't think anyone comes to work to suck. It's, they don't make that decision, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna suck today. Nobody does that. Well, most people don't do that.

I mean, they might suck, but I think we discredit people's willingness to want to contribute and be better. So we've got to create the space for them to show up.

And I think especially as leaders, when we create that safe environment, when we trust or when we give our attention to focusing people rather than trying to fix them, I think that's when we start to see those evolutions when we look at this person's natural skill set. And you could use whatever methodology you want.

Cliftonstrengths, finders, the disc profile, whatever helps you highlight what people are really good at once you know that put them there, put them there and contribute those things, those skills, those passions, everywhere they can and just keep iterating and iterating and iterating.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:29:14.770 - 00:31:14.880
I like that. I think it, it connects with you know, a call to action I'm regularly making in particularly in kind of classroom style.

Leadership development is around sort of the power of having an intentional career conversation. So, I mean, first of all, I encourage people to do that probably twice a year. Right? I mean, things change all the time.

You know, you might think you really want to do something, and maybe you get a taste of it, and maybe now you're thinking that's not so much my thing.

So I think having regular conversations at least a couple times a year around what someone wants to be when they grow up is vitally important, but it's the information that comes out of those conversations, right? It's taking the time to even take a step back from the titles. The what do you want to be?

And get more into the granular of like, well, what does that look like? And what do you want to do? Right? What are the things that you like doing?

Not just the title you want, but, you know, oh, presenting in front of groups. That's something you really like. Well, where can we, even within the bounds of your current job, give you more opportunity for that?

So I think there's this.

I think, to your point, this huge opportunities leaders can play, and maybe it isn't crafting a new role for you, but it's, you know, can I help you create more ideal days than you're getting today? Right? Like, can we get that. Can we get you an ideal day once a month? Can we get you an ideal day twice a month, once a week? Like, how do we build?

You know, And I always say, like, someone, you know, not every day can be perfect. Not every day can be filled with things you, like, someone has to shovel out the horse stalls regardless. Right? Yes, I think.

I think it's a really good. I think. I think I'm putting my own maybe super tactical HR language behind what you're saying.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:31:14.880 - 00:32:07.550
I think that's brilliant and it's insightful, and I think the call to action there is stop and take the time to have those conversations. And I'll add one more question to the arsenal of those questions that you asked.

One thing that we as leaders can do with somebody else in order to create opportunities where maybe we don't know they exist is to say, how do you want to feel every day at work, if possible? What makes you feel that way?

Okay, let's find opportunities to do that, you know, and we use what people respond with, what those things individually mean to them, and then we go, okay. And, oh, by the way, strategically, we link whatever task they're doing to them, creating that feeling for themselves. Right.

We reframe the narrative so they see how it plays to that and then they lean in further because it's theirs. It's what they want to do. It's what them brings them alive.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:32:08.510 - 00:32:23.550
Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Well, before I give us another violent shove into our advice section, was there anything else from your book or any of your consulting work that you wanted to make sure we talked a little bit about today?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:32:23.550 - 00:32:50.120
You know, the book is, is out there. You could find it on Amazon. Both my books, as a matter of fact. So I won't spend too much time pointing people in that direction.

I think this idea of giving yourself permission is just so critical. It's, it's. We, we are our own worst enemies. We get in our own way. Sign your own permission slip, go start doing.

Ask those questions that create opportunities for you and then if you screw up, cool. Use it as a learning experience. But you gotta go.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:32:51.000 - 00:32:51.440
Yeah.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:32:51.440 - 00:32:53.160
Stop waiting. Creating.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:32:54.040 - 00:34:23.120
Stop waiting, sir. I love that.

I think what connects for me there is what my own sort of networking, which in the end has taught me a lot about running my own business in fact as well. But so a saying that I butcher and is sort of like, you know, ask not and ye shall certainly not receive. Right.

Like sometimes you have to ask for what you want and not speaking it, not putting it out at all into the world to be turned down is sort of self fulfilling, right?

So even in, even in reaching out to network with someone or even in having that conversation with your manager about what you might want to do when you grow up today, you don't have that conversation right? Today that conversation is not on your calendar. And so by not even asking for that conversation, you're in the same spot, right?

And so what's the worst, you know, what's the worst that can happen by asking for that conversation or having that conversation?

The worst that could happen is perhaps that leader says, I don't know that I see that for you, but that's about, that's in and of itself valuable information, right?

That the, the gamble that that conversation is actually going to go well and have some level of forward momentum for you is, is worth, you know, putting yourself out there for.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:34:23.120 - 00:34:29.449
Yeah, I, I agree completely and I have nothing to add to that. I think that was just brilliant the way that you. I was listening.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:34:29.449 - 00:35:22.310
But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it's, it's so this has been a weird, you know, a weird year.

So let me just have that be a Call to action, even just from networking perspective. Right.

I think we've seen multiple layoffs happening out there, which is, you know, for anybody listening who might be on the job market right now, reach out to people just to chat. Reach out to people just to network. Right. Today you don't have that networking meeting.

If you reach out and have that networking meeting, you never know what could happen. Right. And the idea there being the one ask should be, do you know anybody else that I should get to know? Right.

And by again, not having that conversation today, the gamble is just so much more positive to. To go for it and put yourself out there. Right. Sorry, that's my psa.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:35:22.630 - 00:35:24.870
I agree with you completely. What's the worst that could happen?

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:35:25.030 - 00:35:25.670
Go for it.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:35:25.670 - 00:35:32.710
Just. Just go for it and, you know, refine your skills, do better next time, whatever. But. But stop waiting.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:35:33.750 - 00:35:44.070
Yeah. I mean, and the worst that could happen is you end up in the same spot with new data letting you know maybe that door is shut. But now you know. Yeah.

That's just as empowering to know. All right, well, maybe I do need to move in another direction.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:35:44.070 - 00:36:24.020
Yeah.

And a friend of mine, Courtney Clark, she's a fantastic speaker and friend of mine, and she has this concept called revisionary thinking, and she talks about the fact that sometimes we need to change our plans. You know, we hear so much about grit, and you got to have grit, and you just got to push forward, push forward, push forward.

But sometimes, well, you got to move, because sometimes this ain't working. Grit ain't going to get you there. Right, Right. You've got to navigate just slightly in some other way.

And I think we got to give ourselves permission to, in some cases, go on, move on, give up, go somewhere else. If we get data that things aren't working now, that's. In some cases, I don't want to be the. The motivational speaker who told you to.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:36:24.020 - 00:36:25.860
Quit, just give up.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:36:25.860 - 00:36:28.940
But no, in some cases, we just have to know it's okay to try something else.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:36:29.820 - 00:36:37.380
Yeah, Yeah. I think it's the. What are they called? The sunk cost. Yeah. Fallacy. Right. Like, you need to be careful not to continue investing.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:36:37.380 - 00:36:37.820
Yeah.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:36:37.820 - 00:36:40.820
Just because you've invested up to this point. Right?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:36:40.820 - 00:36:42.020
Yep, Absolutely.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:36:42.820 - 00:37:01.150
All right, well, I'm going to move us into our advice, the advice column of the, you know, audio video podcast. So I ask every guest to come prepared to give a couple pieces of advice, plus sort of a grab bag section.

So the first part is, what advice do you have for leaders out there, leaders of people in Particular.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:37:01.470 - 00:37:56.170
Thank you. A two part answer to that question. The first is listen to what the world is telling you.

Listen to what the world is telling you and use that to reinforce what you're doing. And I'll give you an example of this.

A few years ago I started talking on this concept that ultimately became a technique that I now help managers with called Slow youw Know. And I never gave it much thought. I was like, yeah, here's this thing called Slow youw Know. And it was, it was almost like a throwaway.

And now it seems to be the one thing that people, that resonates with people almost more than anything else I do. It's, it's like Mel Robbins's five second rule when she did that, that TEDx, that TED Talk, that was just like an afterthought.

And suddenly that resonated so much with people that she's built a gazillion dollar empire off of it. Now I have not built a gazillion dollar empire, but I do have this technique that really resonates with leaders and I truly believe in it.

And it's called Slow your no.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:37:56.240 - 00:37:56.480
No.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:37:56.560 - 00:38:31.460
And the idea is simply this. We tend to have a predisposition for the word no. People come up with new ideas and no, that's not going to work.

Or no, we tried that before and there's so much that happens in that moment. And let's go back to this. People want to be good at work.

So you have somebody who's maybe motivated and charismatic and they go, oh, I've got this great idea. And a leader goes, no, that's not going to work. Work squashed in the moment.

This person who wanted to contribute, they're not going to come and bring their new ideas forward anymore.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:38:31.460 - 00:38:31.940
Yeah.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:38:31.940 - 00:39:45.180
So what I encourage people to do is okay, look, there are bad ideas out there, but don't start with a no, slow your no, and instead ask three relevant questions. Right. So what does that look like in practice? Somebody comes up to you and they say, oh, I got this great idea.

And you go, why is that your recommendation? What data do you have to support that? That's the way forward. What external sources of validation do you have now?

Something markedly different happens in that moment. Number one, that person feels seen, they feel heard, they feel valued and acknowledged. And that's good. That alone is worth it.

But the second thing that happened is we as leaders in that moment by asking those questions and we've created a growth opportunity. Because now this person, maybe they hadn't thought this idea all the way through and they go, ooh, why is that my recommended. Okay, ooh, what data?

I didn't get any data. What external sources? I.

And with the right feedback mechanisms in place, now this person knows how to show up better next time when they're pitching an idea. We've taught them in the moment how to do it more effectively. And I think that really resonates.

So slow your nose, replace it with three relevant questions.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:39:45.500 - 00:40:25.890
I love that. I would say for the leaders listening out there, that is what's called coaching. When we talk about leader as coach, right.

When we say, how do you coach? It's, you know, a, stop rolling up your sleeves to get to work when somebody brings you a problem.

But B, you know, asking these questions in this moment, right.

They might go back and answer those questions and come back and the next time they have an idea, they're probably more likely to have thought through those questions first and then come to you. Right. This is how. This is one of the many ways you, to your point.

You know, I wanted to give you more credit than just calling it a development opportunity. This is how you coach your employees. That's great. Yeah.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:40:26.050 - 00:40:34.660
And when people feel, you know, we talked about opportunity a little while ago. When people feel like they're showing up better than they did the day before, that's growth. That resonates with people.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:40:35.210 - 00:40:58.970
Yeah, I love that. So the second piece of advice, I always, I always struggle with this because I want to create space for this not to just be the HR advice column.

So I always say, you know, what's your advice for people who support hr? So I'm still working with, like, how do I word this question? Because I also want there to be space for senior leaders. Right.

Senior leaders are also supporting leaders. So what's your advice for those who support leaders out there?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:40:58.970 - 00:42:01.140
Your advice for support leaders like HR functions, who support leaders out there? I. Hmm, let me think through that. I hadn't put that lens on, on anything that I had yet.

I think reinforcing the fact that there are rarely closed door decisions.

I think that's really helpful to remind people of, you know, I, I think we, we tend to say, well, if we go this way, we can't change our mind, we can't change direction. It's a closed door. We're not going any further. And the truth is it's not. And if anything, we, as leaders and as organizations, we need to be able to.

I hate this word pivot. If we get information that says it's not working.

So I Think we, when we're helping support people, we can say, just be cognizant of the fact that sometimes we're giving off the impression of, you know, closed door decisions when there's not. There's also not, you know, those, those false dichotomies. It doesn't have to always be this or this now it's sometimes, you know, compliance issues.

Sure. But rarely in our day to day interactions is it truly this or this. It can be a blend. It can be somewhere in the middle.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:42:02.500 - 00:42:16.380
We were talking about Apple products before we hit record and you just made me think of the iPhone. Right. It's not done. They didn't finish and walk away. You know, they're always iterating like they just rolled out the newest operating system.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:42:16.380 - 00:42:16.620
Right.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:42:16.620 - 00:42:46.030
So I think it's have that design sort of. I don't know if it's design thinking, but it's this. To your point, nothing's ever done.

You can always continue to make a new or better decision or bring it into a new direction. I think that's really helpful for HR to remind or even senior leaders to remind their leaders who report to them. Right.

You know, and I think we were kind of talking about this earlier too, which is not letting perfection get in the way of progress. Yeah.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:42:46.830 - 00:43:35.260
And remembering that we are still on this journey too. I have one challenge with the work that I do is people.

Very often they're like, oh, he's this thought leader and whatever, they can refer to me or anyone as those things. But there's this. He has all the answers. And my answer to that is no, I don't.

I got a certain skill set, I've got a certain expertise, I've got some ideas that resonate with people, but I don't know all the answers. And those people who are telling you they do, I'm sorry, they're full of it. They don't.

And so when we're talking with any level of leader, I think it's helpful to remind us that we're all works in progress. We all have blind spots.

We all could benefit from not being the smartest people in the room and thinking that we've got all the answers and being open to what the world has to tell us. So that's a reminder of myself more than anything.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:43:36.220 - 00:43:56.720
Love it. Fun fact, I don't think I've said or heard the word resonate today without thinking of you and music just in this conversation.

So the final part is I call it the grab bag section. So it could be. Do you have Another piece of advice just in general out there. Or, and. Or you could do both.

If people want a little more Rick Lozano in their life, how can they find you?

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:43:56.960 - 00:45:41.540
Thank you. First of all, my website is ricklozano.com. it's L O Z A N O. My books finder, Jam Acoustic Leadership. They're on Amazon.

My music, my quote unquote, real music is. Is everywhere you stream.

By the way, if you ever want to support me or any other musician in getting their music heard, the best way to do that is to actually like a song, but put it on a playlist you actually listen to. Right? Yeah, put it on a playlist. Because then the algorithms go, hey, he's on a playlist with these other people.

So if you, if you've got friends who are musicians and you ever want to support them, that's the best way to do it, is put their songs on a playlist. What else, what other advice? I'll leave you with this, this last bit. And, and we kind of alluded to this earlier.

I've got, I've got this belief and I learned it from the world of, of like, comedy. It is this. If you're trying to bring something to life, whatever that is, you can't go half idiot. You can't go half idiot.

You've got to go all the way. You've got to commit to the bit, right? You think about improv or Second City or Saturday Night Live, some of those things are really, really dumb.

But if they don't go all in, even with the dumb ideas, it will never have a chance of working. And I think similarly, you know, we've got to go full idiot, if you will. We've got to put ourselves out there, even if there's a risk.

And, and I'll close with that.

As, as we talked about my journey, it was when I wasn't going all in on my unique capabilities, skill sets, passions that I was getting in my own way. So my encouragement today for everyone's. Don't go half idiot. Go full on idiot. There you go, Reckless dropping the mic.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:45:42.260 - 00:46:02.780
I love it. You've heard it here first, folks. Go full idiot. Rick, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. This was such a fun conversation.

I did not expect a, at least from the bounds of the recording, a personal concert today, which will then become a podcast. First live or now recorded song. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Rick Lozano (guest)
00:46:02.780 - 00:46:03.940
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Kent Kniebel (host)
00:46:05.060 - 00:46:27.390
That brings us to the, the end of our episode. Thanks for listening. I'd encourage you to head on over to my website, Kent Coach, and start a conversation with me there.

Or check out my promotion playbook at Kent Coach Playbook. Before you go on with your day, I ask that you please take a moment to leave a rating and a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Five stars.

That helps put this podcast in front of more eyes and ears. Until next time, take it easy.